Angela:
Hi and welcome. I'm so excited about what we have on the podcast today that I wanted to give you a sneak peek before we dive in.
Andrea:
So I said that I've walked this journey. So I was a Bible college graduate. I was 25 years old and I found myself in an unwanted pregnancy and I was in shame upon shame upon shame. However, I tried to live for a long time in denial that I wasn't really pregnant and that only gets you so far along in a pregnancy. And so I was probably roughly 25 weeks and I knew that something was going to have to change. I had actually been having a lot of suicidal thoughts and thinking about I should kill myself. There were some moments of divine intervention that didn't happen, and-
Angela:
Welcome to ProGrace on abortion. Real talk, no politics. I'm Angela Weszely, CEO and co-founder of ProGrace. We are a community of people who want to have the conversation around abortion. Now, it's not currently happening in our churches because there's so much tension around the debate and having a civil conversation is hard. The church is divided, but it's time to come together. And the way we'll do that is to model our approach after Jesus, not politics. If you feel like you don't really belong in either the pro-life or pro-choice camp and you think surely Jesus has a better way, then welcome to the ProGrace community, a place you can belong.
I had an inspiring conversation with Andrea Leigh Capuyan. She's the executive director of the Laurel Pregnancy Center located in the Baltimore and Washington DC metro area. The LPC specializes in counseling based services for people who are walking through pregnancy, specifically those who lack support or are experiencing an unintended or unexpected pregnancy. They also counsel people after the loss of pregnancy through miscarriage or abortion, and Andrea's story was so moving to me because she experienced a lot of hurt, from the church, the messages she heard around unintended pregnancy, and now she is back wanting the church to have a different response that looks more like Jesus.
And just for her to be able to come back and do that work was very encouraging to me and I know you will also be encouraged to hear her story. I really want to hear your journey to coming into this space because you've been in our equip learning community for a couple years now, and I just love the way you talk about how you serve women and also you talk about experiences you've had that are similar to mine, where there was some discontent in how things were being done, which led you to where you are. And so you and I have talked. We only want to talk about things we're discontented with to take ownership ourselves, but also to say, "Hey church, we can do better." Right?
Andrea:
Absolutely.
Angela:
And your passion comes from a very real personal experience so I'm excited for you to unpack that with us today and we'll see where the conversation goes. So yeah, what is your journey to being in what you and I both know now is a controversial space, but we talked about neither one of us knew that when we first took a job.
Andrea:
Nope.
Angela:
Kind of got tricked into it, but find out quickly, but yeah, what landed you in this role or working in this space?
Andrea:
Yeah, so you're right. I had no idea that this was a controversial job. I just thought it was a local ministry that did really compassionate work.
Angela:
Yes. Right. Same. Helping women. What's controversial about that?
Andrea:
Helping, yes. So yeah, a bulletin announcement because I was a person who edited and put all the bulletin announcements together and one of those announcements was for a job opening at our local pregnancy center for the director of client services. And so I sent off a quick email to the executive director to just really say, I just want to say thank you. You don't know the stories you hold. You don't know how fragile and tender people are walking through the doors. Thank you for being there. Thank you for caring. I can imagine you might not hear that often, so as somebody further down the road, thank you. And long story short, that job didn't come to fruition. The executive director reached back out to me because I sent that email and said, "Hey, I'm actually thinking of doing a job transition. You should apply for my job."
Angela:
Okay.
Andrea:
Okay. And so I did. Yeah, so I think what I have found as I stepped into this space, I come from a perspective of someone who faced an unintended, unwanted pregnancy and was desperate. And so again, I understand the value of pregnancy centers and of pregnancy center work because I had walked that road. I did not have in any part of my imagination that our work would be wrapped up in some of the political cause and movement pieces that have been associated with the pregnancy center. So I will legitimately say that is not the mindset I had that influenced why I applied for this position. And in retrospect, I mean we're 16 years down the road and I can see how that has impacted how I have led and thought about why we exist and what we do.
Angela:
Yeah. Now, so let me ask you, did that cause right away then some issues because you're coming in with one perspective. We are offering care, completely separate from the political, and you came into an organization that for whatever reason... And I think there's lots of reasons, but they had adopted some of the same language or used it to gather support. What were people's responses or what was your response when those two things collided, your intention and then what was actually happening? Step right into it Andrea.
Andrea:
Right, exactly. I think a little bit of it was confusion. And I'll tell you where it showed up as confusion. I will tell you one of the first things that happened in the first probably three months that I was here was I began to notice with the people who served here, this tyranny of the urgent was dominating choices and behaviors of people at the center.
Angela:
The staff you're talking about.
Andrea:
Yeah. And volunteers. And what I mean by that was like anybody who walked through the door at any time, everything dropped and everybody had this sense of having to respond. And so again, I don't think I was even coming at it... Because I wasn't coming at it from a we have to stop something, and so then beginning to engage in a conversation of, okay, so then let's look at this from our theology and what we think about what God is up to and what he has actually given us responsibility for and what is not our responsibility. And we quickly begin to have a conversation around, do we not trust that God guided her steps before she walked through the door? He can guide her until she comes to us again and if she never comes to us again, can we not trust that God is at work, even if we aren't part of the story?
Can we think about it that way? Psalms 139 is held up so often as a pillar for why pregnancy centers do what they do because we focus in on you. I was knitted together in my mother's womb, but it begins with search me and know me. You go behind and before. So it is really rest. And do we believe that God's got this and he is in it? And our responsibility, yes, is to be responsive, but it isn't to be codependent and it isn't to get caught up in trying to perhaps redeem our own story because we might feel guilty or bad and trying to alleviate that guilt by simply getting caught up in the tyranny of the urgent.
Angela:
Yeah, there's so much in what you're saying. I'm just sitting here taking it to so many places because I think that the tyranny of the urgent was also behind what I saw. Our team would say I have to talk her out of an abortion. I have to share the gospel with her. And I remember saying to someone, why? Why right in that minute? She's come to us for... We've said we're going to offer her a safe place to process without agenda. That's not what you just said. That's not a safe place without agenda. But there was this tyranny of the urgent that I have to do this or else, like you said, this horrible thing's going to happen.
And I remember saying to one of our staff, do you do that to the women in the grocery store line? Why this issue? Why these women? There's like a mental stuckness for Christians. We're a bit messed up when it comes to this issue and what has happened then is we come across as only caring about that abortion decision, which goes back to why this is controversial and you and I didn't know it, but I think that tyranny of the urgent is also behind maybe the anxiety around the politicalness of it too. I have to vote a certain way or else these catastrophic things are going to happen instead of backing up and saying, where's God in all this?
Andrea:
Absolutely.
Angela:
These are people just like you and me, and if we really think they're making a decision that's harmful to them and harmful to others, what's the way we do that in our own lives? How did Jesus interact with society? And you're right, Andrea, there was never the tyranny of the urgent, but didn't he always just slow things down. And that's what you did. You sound like you were more successful than I was because I think I started be in the table. Why are you talking to women this way? You actually had a really great understanding. How did you move people to what you felt would be a more Christ-like way? What did you replace the tyranny of the urgency with?
Andrea:
Well, so here's what's fascinating is that it took a little while, but I think slowly what I started hearing was relief.
Angela:
From your team.
Andrea:
Yeah. So relief from the team that there was not an expectation from the top. So from leadership, that they needed to be results-driven. And so they started hearing and experiencing here within the center a much more relational approach that gave them freedom and they actually liked the freedom. And so what might've been resistant at first quickly moved to, I started hearing things like this feels so much better.
Angela:
Okay. So grace for themselves first.
Andrea:
Yeah, absolutely, right.
Angela:
You set up an atmosphere of grace. You're not responsible for this. We have a big God who is, and they were able to receive that. So they'd almost been operating under legalism performance for themselves.
Andrea:
Absolutely. And they could feel the pressure of it. So the pressure, whether it is the idea of changing somebody's mind about abortion or whether it's even as you said, I have to convince them to accept Jesus. Those two things are I don't think we realize how much pressure we put on ourselves. And I can see that now. I functioned for a long time under the pressure of sharing the gospel and that I had to. And so every time somebody doesn't want to go there with you in that kind of a conversation, you walk away feeling like a failure. And so I think for our team, they thought there was an expectation of I have to do these things.
And so they were living under that pressure and yet they also weren't feeling the weight of, I'm not persuasive enough. I don't see the numbers changing. This doesn't feel like it... I don't see success in this and so suddenly here well, perhaps that's not what we're pursuing. There became a freedom in hearing. Oh, that's not what we're pursuing. Oh, okay. And it just became a relief. In recent years, I have thought a lot about the Lord's prayer and when Jesus invites us to forgive those who trespass against us as we have trespassed, that whole phrase about trespass and that invitation, when I think of trespass, I think of violating boundaries.
And so there is something about taking responsibility for things of others that we are not supposed to take responsibility for, and it actually causes harm on both sides of the relationship. When we assume responsibility, when we trespass on somebody else's autonomy and on who they are as an individual and we get into enabling behaviors or codependency, we then take on weight that we can't bear and we then diminish who they are as a person. And so as I've dwelt more on that prayer, I like to linger on those lines in prayer because that forgiveness is actually meant to be freeing for both sides of that whole battle to want to take over somebody's life. And we aren't meant to do that.
Angela:
Oh my gosh, that is so good. I'm learning so much about boundaries in my own life, and that's what I was thinking is some of the focus is on how we're impacting the people coming to us for help. But you're right, it starts with the Christians themselves being under pressure to perform to do something drives this boundary crossing and then the people we're talking to feel that, of course they feel that. And so if you read online experiences women have had with Christian pregnancy centers, they'll say, I felt like I was a walking womb. I read someone say that. That's all they cared about was my reproduction and I felt like it was a project and I felt like they didn't see me. Do we understand the high, high stakes to ourselves and to those we want to interact with when we cross boundaries? We cause people, we like you say, we cause them to feel like we don't care about them. We've taken away their dignity. It's counterproductive to the hope Christians have for flourishing in the world.
Andrea:
So I said that I've walked this journey, so I was a Bible college graduate. I was 25 years old, and I found myself in an unwanted pregnancy and I was in shame upon shame upon shame. However, I tried to live for a long time in denial that I wasn't really pregnant and that only gets you so far along in a pregnancy. And so I was probably roughly 25 weeks, and I knew that something was going to have to change. I had actually been having a lot of suicidal thoughts and thinking about I should kill myself. There were some moments of divine intervention that didn't happen and I picked up the phone and I called a local pregnancy center.
I was a Christian. I knew somewhat what pregnancy centers did. I thought they provided help to people who were stuck in pregnancy. And I picked up the phone and I called and when I said what was going on, I basically said, "Hi, I find myself pregnant. I want to place this baby for adoption." I didn't say very much more than that. I just said, but I haven't seen a doctor. I don't know what to do. How can you help me kind of thing. And in that moment when that phone call ended, I remember thinking, they don't want to help me.
Angela:
Oh my gosh.
Andrea:
I remember thinking they're just telling more hoops to jump through. I remember hearing, "Well, we don't do medical care. You're going to have to go get Medicaid. You're going to have to wait all day in a line to sign up for that." And I just felt really discouraged and I am thinking still in my head, I just want to get this over with. I really, I want to get out of... How do I get out of this? I want this to be over. And so then I went to the next thing in the phone book and it was those [inaudible 00:18:23] phone books and it was-
Angela:
I remember.
Andrea:
... Catholic Charities. I picked up the line and I called Catholic Charities, same spiel. "Hi, I know I'm pregnant. I haven't seen a doctor at all. I want to place my child for an adoption. How can you help me?" And the woman on the phone, I don't know what else she said, but what sticks with me is I heard, "Oh sweetie, okay, we need to get you into care." And then she immediately like, "This is what I need you to do." And so it could very well be, I look back on it and think, it could very well be that they both had ways to help, but I heard an oh sweetie and I heard obstacles, and I remember a few years ago, it was probably 2017, I am sitting in a room with other directors of pregnancy centers and we are talking about our services and sharing ideas. Somebody shared an idea about perhaps expanding medically of what they do, and someone in the room says, you don't want to go down that road. That's not who you want to serve.
Remember, we exist to help women not have abortions. And in that moment it was like I was right back on the telephone with that first phone call to a pregnancy center. I was like, oh, I did hear her right, this is not my imagination that I wasn't who they wanted to help because I've just heard you say that you didn't want to help me. You don't want to help people who already tell you their plan. You only want to help people who might be choosing abortion, so you didn't want to help me and what you don't know and what they didn't know at the pregnancy center is that I truly was contemplating suicide and there was no way I was going to share that over the phone with anybody. I was filled with shame. And so that has a lot to do with why I lead the way I lead because we do not know what is happening in the life of the people who are on the other side the phone, and they are going to tell us the things they think are safe to tell us.
They're going to tell us the things that they think will invite us to respond in a caring attitude, that they might receive connection and compassion. So if we can try to get into this whole thing of trying to be persuasive and ascertain their intentions, we are fooling ourselves and we are full of arrogance because I have been on the other side of the phone and I knew immediately I didn't have to hear words of judgment. I felt you are not who we're trying to help and we have nothing to offer you. And they didn't know the road I had already been walking down. They did not know the shame that I was in. And as a Christian, I was like, I just want to get this pregnancy over with and then I am leaving the church. I'm leaving God behind. He is done with me and I'm done with him.
Angela:
Oh my gosh, Andrea, I just want to thank you for telling your story because I think so much of why we as Christians, and I've been guilty of this too, you and I talked about this, we have not stopped to say, to look at a person who's experiencing an unintended pregnancy and say, what is this like for you and what you have just painted... And I'm going to ask if you don't mind telling us a little more, what was that like for you? You said some things that indicate, so you were a Bible college graduate, so there was an identity you had-
Andrea:
Yes.
Angela:
... as a strong Christian, evangelical Christian. When I hear Bible college I think evangelical and then you're pregnant, and that was so jarring to your literal sense of self that you thought at 25, it's better for me just to end it. I mean that is not surprising to me because I know the research, but I would love to hear you unpack that. I don't think people... I think there's a callousness in how we look at people like, hey, just make the right decision or do it. Or I think, honestly, I'll tell you both sides, neither side I don't think fully understands the emotional weight.
Andrea:
Agreed.
Angela:
So whether the answer is don't have an abortion or here come have an abortion, neither one of those gets to what you are saying and that is I would love for you to talk more as you feel comfortable. What was that like? Why was there so much shame? How can we do better so that that's not the experience of let's just say Christians. Just make it about Bible college graduates.
Andrea:
Absolutely. Absolutely. The pregnancy actually in my mind was proof of God's judgment and yet it took that happening. So I am so grateful that it happened because talk about God blowing apart a belief system that was so wrong about who he is. That whole thing blew apart what I thought about God and grace in that I was then very much challenged to like, oh, well wait a second, if this isn't true, if God says that children are a blessing, then pregnancy is never a judgment. Pregnancy actually says Andrea, this was not about... And this is a hard thing. You can't qualify yourself to be pregnant and for those for whom desire children and that's not happening, that's a hard message to hear. And for those who suddenly find themselves pregnant and don't want to be pregnant, it is profound for us to imagine that God is saying, I'm entrusting a human life to you, and this is not about whether you deserve it or not. This is a picture of what grace looks like.
Angela:
Wow. Oh my gosh. Andrea, how have you come so far with that legalistic upbringing? Oh my word. This is why you're a champion of grace.
Andrea:
Well, I've come so far because I got pregnant outside of marriage and all of this, that whole thing, I can look back at that part of my life with absolutely no regret, simply with praise. We've just come out of Easter and Lent and I can look at my story and go absolutely out of ashes. That is where God makes his beauty. And he even says it in Genesis, out of dirt he creates his image bearers. So there's nothing that is shameful or dirty about our stories. It is always a place where God meets us and resurrects and make things new, right.
Angela:
Wow. Wow. There is this unbelievable amount of responsibility and shame that goes on the woman that something broke inside my heart. I felt this in other areas of my life. I know I've been harmed by patriarchy and things in the church, but particularly when there's so much shame or there's so much like well tell a woman just to continue the pregnancy and she shouldn't have an abortion. And then you hear what the experience is like for a woman and that level of the man not having any responsibility and it's all on her and the shame is all on her. I don't know. I was just like, this has to break God's heart because this is sure breaking mine and it's like a healing that he needs to bring and I want him to start with the church partly responsible.
We've done this. We've told women they're the guardians of men's sexual behavior. We've told them, don't you dare come home pregnant. Obviously people gave you messages about sex and then it ends in such destruction that you thought about taking your own life. I am just coming out of my skin right now, like I want to see that change. And I think you telling your story and doing what you're doing, this grace message, that's what's going to change it. That's the redemption I want to see. But what do you want to see because I am amazed, first of all, you have a lot of courage to be in this work after how you were treated by the church.
Just hearing those messages and the fact that you came to that, now that you're back trying to be Jesus in this same environment and trying to help Christians act more like Jesus takes so much courage and fortitude. I am in awe and you're so healthy with it. Like you said, you're not trying to do penance. I think sometimes that is involved. You've really internalized grace and so I think it's important to hear from you, what do you want to see? Because you have a really strong voice after what you've walked through. So what do you want to see the church be? What's your dream?
Andrea:
Yeah, so I mean my desire for the church is that we can become communities of people who are deeply humble and recognize we do not know what we don't know about somebody else's story and just allow ourselves to sit in how fragile that actually makes us to face our own limitations of I don't know what I don't know. And I have preconceived notions that skew how I see the world and how I see others. And so I want the church to start from a place of deep, deep humility that can just be more comfortable with saying life is uncertain and that is scary. And God understands and I am limited and I don't know what I don't know, but I can ask really good questions and I can listen.
Angela:
And what do you see God do because I know that's how you lead your organization. That's how you train your staff. They're a microcosm of the church being this. What do you then see God do when we don't cross boundaries and we come from this humble place, we trust him. What do you see happen when you see women coming in experiencing what you were experiencing? What's different about their experience because they receive from your organization?
Andrea:
So two things I think we see happen is that... I mean the freedom that you hear me express comes because I am doing this work and have entered this work saying, God, you need to keep transforming me. There is still arrogance. There is still a heart of stone, there is still preconceived notions, there's still shame and contempt at work. And so I show up and every day there is something that God is going to be teaching me more deeply about why this work is important. So there is my transformation. I will say that our whole team, they know that they show up here not just to serve, but because God is wanting to still transform their life and show them something new about who he is. So that is change that I see is that we are people who we come here, it's part of our own spiritual journey.
It isn't simply about just serving and people and just God pleasing. The other piece is that we see clients who feel like these people actually are kind and compassionate and they hear me. And for us I think it has given us this place where, yes, we do pregnancy support care, but the world that we are open to is reproductive loss and after abortion care. And so we are seeing people who aren't even Christians coming through the door for after abortion care. We are excited about that and it's because we recognize that God shows up in those super critical moments of life and death. We know that. And he has called us to be with people in those moments. And he's also called us to be people who know that even in death, that's not the end of the story. There is always resurrection.
And so we can look at abortion as an opportunity for transformation as much as we look at how we look at pregnancy decisions as opportunities for transformation. We can look at both as being divine moments of powerful stories. And so we have clients who then tell us, I was seen and heard. I feel deeply... I feel like I can share openly about everything that's going on. Vast majority of our clients, more than 95% say I feel like I can speak openly. That's what we want to know. And we have clients who've walked through after abortion care program saying that this has helped me in terms of how am I going to hold this decision. I've been given a place to process and grieve. I am not alone.
Angela:
I am really glad you brought up after abortion. When we see just church groups made up of various people go through the ProGrace transform course that invariably happens. One or more people in that group says, I've never told anybody this, so hello church. That's a problem. I've never told anybody this, but that was my story. I just keep seeing that and I keep saying, God, what are you trying to tell me slash us the church ProGrace because we've missed that piece of being with people and helping them process an incredibly difficult and painful and I would say whatever you even morally think about abortion as a Christian, I think we can all come together and say it's hard. There's grief and loss.
Andrea:
Absolutely.
Angela:
And there's not a place to process it. And I think it's interesting, back to your talk about numbers. I kind of wonder if we're not going to be a safe place for people who are in the pregnancy piece of it until we are safe for people you got on the afterwards. That shows that we haven't really... We say we care about the person involved in an abortion decision, but if we don't care for the woman, that's not true. We only care about half. I'm sorry, I'm just going to say it. We only care about a child being born. Somehow that makes us feel we did our Christian duty when there's another person involved and a man too. And if they're not seen and heard and they can't find healing, then no, we can't just check this off and say we're good Christians. Does that make sense? I think God's trying to tell us, stop and see the people and develop even a Christian theology around after abortion how are we there for people.
Andrea:
And I have shared that with our church partners when they come to me and say, we really want to figure out how to step into this space of unintended pregnancy, and perhaps they even are at a place of being able to acknowledge, we know it's happening within our congregation, so we don't want to... They are shedding or recognize that there has been past messages around sexual purity that have been much like my own misconstrued thoughts. They want to shed those messages and they want to have a message that pregnancy is not judgment. And my feedback to them is, I think before you can jump into the waters of having a ministry around responding to people in unintended pregnancy, my question to you would be how are you handling those in your congregation who currently are on the other side of an abortion decision?
And until, I would agree with you, I think until a church has been able to actually move into that space and say, this is who we are, this is here and be willing again to go back to, you don't have to solve that for anybody. God is in the work of grief and resurrection. All we are meant to do is to be able to listen and say, can you tell me more about that? And can simply validate the grief and the loss and the pain. What God's given us to do is very easy things. It's simply listening and it's simply saying, can you tell me more? And validating what somebody's experience was. And so until we're willing to do that in our congregation with our own people around their own past trauma and past abortions, we are never going to be able to be a safe space for people who are facing unintended pregnancy.
There is support after abortion has a couple of statistics that are very sad and I think is the call for us right now, and that is somewhere north of 80% of women say, I had an abortion and I have nowhere to go afterwards for recovery. That's 80% of women who are telling us across all lines, whether they're Christian or not. They understand the impact and they're looking for help and they don't know where to go. And we also have learned that they also tell us that more than 80% of women who are Christians at the time of their abortion never returned to church.
Angela:
Oh my gosh.
Andrea:
And so we are wounding our fellow brothers and sisters. It's heartbreaking.
Angela:
Oh, Andrea, thank you so much. I have to tell you, we started this conversation before we recorded saying we want to own our part in this. And I'm feeling like I'm owning. I've been seeing God do this with the after abortion stuff and I've been like, yeah, something needs to change. And then you've just confirmed in me, yeah, I think I'm going to change my message to the church. There's something in what you said that I'm learning from today and I'm going to take it with me. And then the last piece of what you're saying about abortion too that I think is so interesting, I think this is a place for healing between the two genders because when this happens in churches, it's men equally as women saying, this has been my experience.
So I do think there's something very sacred happening with people feeling enough grace to share their abortion story, men and women. Maybe this is, I'm going to put some thought to this. Maybe this is really the place to start to bring the healing then that you know how passionate, needs to happen during the unintended pregnancy, but maybe we got to start in a different place because it seems to happen there where people can talk about the man's experience too and the woman's, I don't know, something sacred. So anyway, just wanted to tell you how transformed I am after our conversation.
Andrea:
Well, I always enjoy our conversations. I have found ProGrace to be a place where all my contrarian thoughts. I've been able to share them freely. So unlike being in a room full of people who me suddenly feeling like, oh, there is an agenda, I did and this isn't for me. I don't fit this. To be in a place of within ProGrace to go, oh no, there is a different way that God is at work. And we can step back and think about how our own shame and contempt for ourselves and for others is impairing how we are choosing to actually serve God and step out of that and ProGrace is creating communities of pregnancy centers.
So I no longer feel like I am alone or being a wacky person in our own center. I am able to say no, there's a community that is looking to actually equip and transform even our pregnancy centers as well as the whole church to just be able to think about how can we be curious people and attuned people and just really trust that God is shining through us. We don't have to manufacture that. We don't have to be persuasive. He is more powerful than anything we can think of.
Angela:
Amazing. Thank you for that encouragement. We did start this thinking, is anybody going to want to be in this community? And even you shared with me maybe before we recorded, you said your journey started in 2007. Mine started in 2005.
Andrea:
Oh, wow.
Angela:
So I just am like, oh, that's God. I just like to encourage all our listeners too. I think sometimes Christians with, you're calling them contrarian thoughts or feeling like I don't fit in either side. I think we say silent because we... But your encouragement there is a community and it just encourages me. God is doing this, he's putting together the people, he's bringing us together. So we're just putting this out there to find other people that say, something doesn't feel right. And I love that you say there's grace within the ProGrace community because what we're trying to foster.
Andrea:
Absolutely.
Angela:
Christians can come in with any experience or view. We're going to center this on Jesus and just see what he does because that's far better than what we can do.
Andrea:
Absolutely.
Angela:
Well, thank you so much, Andrea. You're doing such amazing work and I for one have been encouraged and challenged by our conversation and I know our listeners have as well so thank you.
Andrea:
Thank you so much for the opportunity. It's been a pleasure. And thank you for the work of ProGrace. It's been so just inspiring and encouraging to me to know that there are just a community of us that are unafraid to just live in this space of grace.
Angela:
Amen. Love it. Thank you.
Andrea:
Thanks.
Angela:
Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you've been inspired to see Jesus and to be part of a community where you feel at home. Join our email subscriber list to receive updates on how together we can change the Christian response to abortion. The only way we'll do that is through God's grace, which is beyond measure. I am so grateful for that. And so until next time, I am Angela Weszely on the grace journey with you. ProGrace on abortion, real talk, no politics is a production of ProGrace International.
