. (00:00:01):
Angela Weszely (00:00:05):
Welcome to ProGrace on abortion, real Talk No Politics. I'm Angela Wesley, c e o, and co-founder of ProGrace. We are a community of people who want to have the conversation around abortion. Now, it's not currently happening in our churches because there's so much tension around the debate. And having a civil conversation is hard. The church is divided, but it's time to come together. And the way we'll do that is to model our approach after Jesus, not politics. If you feel like you don't really belong in either the pro-life or pro-choice camp, and you think surely Jesus has a better way than welcome to the ProGrace community, a place you can belong. Hi, and welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to be joined today by Reverend Dr. Darice Wright. She's an assistant pastor at Life Church in Chicago Heights, Illinois. She also has her doctorate in ministry, which we will talk a lot about in the podcast, and is a certified mental health first aid professional. It's so great to have you on the podcast, Darice.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:01:16):
Thank you for inviting me, Angela. I'm glad to be here.
Angela Weszely (00:01:19):
It's really been a pleasure getting to know you over just the past month, I guess. and we were connected by a mutual friend and when we had lunch together, I was just so taken by how you wove together Theology with Experience. And I really look forward to unpacking that more with you today as we talk about the very serious theological Barbie movie. Right.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:01:45):
, right. .
Angela Weszely (00:01:48):
I
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:01:48):
Barbie. .
Angela Weszely (00:01:49):
Yeah. Darice has on pink. I don't own any pink tops. I actually tried to buy one and nothing fit, but I love your pink top . Absolutely. Love it. And before we dive into the movie, I just thought it would be interesting for you to share your thoughts. this is a relatively new space for you to be in, in terms of wanting to see the church have a new conversation to abortion. But I would just love to hear, you know, how this was brought to your attention, you know, where you see this connecting with your expertise and life experience.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:02:22):
Yeah. Well, ironically, when the movie came out and there was so much hoop hoopla rounded, and, you know, I heard the, the, the reports about how much it was bringing in over the weekends and how it's just phenomenal in terms of the what do they call it? The gate or, or whatever it is, you know, the weekend receipts. Right, right. You know, I was like, wow, what is this all about? You know? I I truly didn't get it. Yeah. . And so, and, and it's not that I never played with Barbies. I mean, I think did, but it di it didn't have the impact. Barbie never had the impact on me that I guess it had on lots of little girls. And so I, I didn't get, what was this phenomena until at lunch you were talking to me about just the kind of epiphanies you had and how it sort of resonated with you as a woman. And and so I began to think, this doesn't sound like a little girl's movie , you know, I thought, right. Kids, this doesn't sound like a little girl's movie. And so I was really intrigued to go see it. And truly it was, I won't say it wasn't a little girls movie, it was an all girls movie. Right. I think it was a movie for any female who is growing up or lives in or lived through a patriarchal society, which is most societies in the world.
Angela Weszely (00:03:59):
Right, absolutely. And you went with our dear friend. I heard you guys had a couple laughs,
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:04:05):
. We did. We did
Angela Weszely (00:04:08):
And you were in Pain, the funny
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:04:09):
Movie. Yeah,
Angela Weszely (00:04:10):
Exactly. Exactly. So let's just dive in. 'cause again, I know you're new to this conversation, you know, with the church and abortion, and then I ask you to be in this podcast where you're like, how does this movie even tie into that ? But we can get there. But yeah, what were your initial thoughts of the movie? You know, you've already shared some of it, but do you have any points that you wanna bring out that were impactful for you or that connected to your story?
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:04:38):
Yeah, so my initial thoughts were even in satire. I mean, there's always some truth in satire. Right? Right. And so it really helped me to, it helped underscore for me how much things have not changed. Hmm. You know, and so we have in many ways and I think this is true of, of, of me as a woman, it's true of me as a black woman and everyone who kind of relates to those two things. we have learned to plot our way through mm-hmm. , we have learned to make the best of it. We have learned to make lemonade out of lemons. Beyonce had a whole Lemonade album that went skyrocket, I think, because it resonated with women of all kinds, whether you were into Beyonce or not, of just how much we make lemonade out of lemons. And in so doing, we tend to have this laser focus to just get it done. And we don't always we're, we're no longer necessarily focused on why it has to be so hard to get it done. We just do it. Wow. And, and what the, the Barbie movie, the juxtaposition between Barbie land and the world helped serve to help me remember. Yeah. This thing that we get up and do every day. You know, it's not as easy as we make it seem . It's not quite as easy as we convince ourselves that it's. Right. And why do you think that is? Do you think it's because it's just always there? Like, static, like, or, or things have gotten better so we think, well, they're all the way there when they're not. I mean, what's your thought on that, on why we just muscle through?
(00:06:44):
I think that ultimately we're, we're built to be aspirational. And so we're aspirational people. and, and if we have sort of a, and this, and this may not come out right, but if we have a modicum of, of mental wellness, then our, our, our ability to go around, go over, get through is part of our mental wellness. But that can also backfire on us because in the process of going around, going over and going through we get scarred often mm-hmm. . And if we don't tend to those scars, then we may end up in a place that's not so mentally well.
Angela Weszely (00:07:34):
Wow. And maybe that's why art then has the ability and humor, even in satire to go around some of the defenses we've created. Maybe that's, you're helping me think that's why I had unexpected experiences watching the movie, where I was like, I haven't let myself think about these issues in, in my story. Right. Is that kind of what you're saying? Right. And so that's like my soul was saying, let's, let's deal with this because there are some scars. I I feel the need to go back and work through some things that I thought maybe I'd worked through, I guess is what I'm saying.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:08:09):
Right, exactly. Yeah. And for me as a black woman, so, so I know this resonated with you 'cause you mentioned it at lunch. and I, and it, and you know, it seems to be one of the pivotal points in the movie when America, the character, the mom of the loop mm-hmm. , when she gave her kind of soliloquy about women what we are are called to be and what we're expected to be, and how those, the, the, you know, it's never enough kind of thing. Yeah. for some reason I had, and it may seem totally unrelated, but for some reason what immediately came to me was this scene from the help. And I don't know if you ever saw the help.
Angela Weszely (00:08:59):
Yes, I did see the
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:09:00):
Help. So with Viola Davis, who was the nanny to this young, white, blonde, little precious little girl. Yep, yep. and she, and so much so that the little girl thought of her more as her mother mm-hmm. Than her mother. Yeah. And so Viola Davis would put the little girl on her lap, and this was a deep south and in the sixties. So, but she would say to her, you is special, you is kind, you is, you know, and she was, I love
Angela Weszely (00:09:31):
That part.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:09:32):
Yeah. Yeah. And so immediately I thought of that because somehow America's the America the actress, the role, when she said that it was all, it was almost like she had us on her lap. Hmm. Was saying, you are special, you as kind you was. Oh. And so I thought about that, but I thought how different everything that America was saying, you can multiply that times 10 for black women.
Angela Weszely (00:10:03):
Mm times 10
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:10:05):
Times 10 for black women, never enough, no matter how much you achieve, she says something in there, she said, you have to be twice as better. Twice as, yeah. Twice as good. And I thought, wow, you have, we have to be 10 times as good. Oh my gosh. And even that's not really enough, you know? and so when I thought about that scene from how Viola Davis Davis, how the power dynamic, even though that was a child mm-hmm. The power dynamic, basically, that child was her boss.
Angela Weszely (00:10:40):
Yeah.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:10:42):
And the power dynamic. But yet even with that power dynamic, it was Viola Davis speaking life into her because she needed it. Right? Yeah. Given the context and environment, she was, she needed someone to tell her, you are special, you are kind, you are powerful. and to have her repeat it and just that connection, so that even though the power dynamic was way different, that the connection was that they both needed it. And so when America was saying that, I was thinking, wow, we, she's saying twice as as good for, for them, but it's 10 times as good. We have to be 10 times better. And yet, even though the hurdles for women generally may be here, and the hurdles for black women may be here, the reality is that we all have hurdles and we all have to help each other get over them.
Angela Weszely (00:11:40):
Oh my gosh. , I have so many thoughts on this. So first of all, I just need to let it sink in, and I wanna hear more stories of what that means. That it's 10 times harder for black women. And I think the fact, I mean, that's a whole, whole nother place. Whereas women in the church, as Christians, as sisters, we need to seek out that understanding. you are actually reminding me of what I feel bad. I can't think of America, the character she played, either I can't, I just
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:12:14):
Yeah. Can't think of her name either.
Angela Weszely (00:12:15):
I'm trying. But her daughter says in the car, everybody hates women. Women hate women, men hate women. And I just am feeling, we didn't think the discussion was gonna go this way, but just a call out to us as women to have these conversations, to listen to what it was like. And I, I think your example of Viola Davis, the little girl wasn't loved at all by her mother. That was her issue. And for Viola Davis to show what you're talking about is grace. She actually was secure enough in who she was. You could say, as Christians, if we're secure in our faith and the love of our, of our father, that she did reach out across a power dynamic that was unjust. I mean, just stop and think of that and minister, like you said, life
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:13:06):
Right.
Angela Weszely (00:13:07):
To this little girl. And so
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:13:10):
But you know what, I think while it was to the little girl, it was to herself also.
Angela Weszely (00:13:15):
Okay. Explain
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:13:16):
That. So, so in order to get to the place to be able to speak that kind of life to the little girl, she also have had to have spoken it to herself or heard it for herself. Hmm. Right. And to be able to look at the little girl who was very different from her, but yet see her need meant that she had to have connected with that need
Angela Weszely (00:13:46):
Even in herself and me. Even in
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:13:47):
Her. Yeah. Yeah.
Angela Weszely (00:13:49):
So you're saying if we Right, if we're empty or if we haven't connected with that need ourself, that we can't possibly have conversations with others.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:13:57):
Right. Right. I also think that that's apparent toward the end of the movie as well, because, you know, at some point Barbie said, says, in effect to Ken, I see you and I realize that your needs have not gone met. Haven't been met. Yeah. Either. and so we need to do we need to start being kinder and more acknowledging of our own selves of each other, I guess. Right. Yeah.
Angela Weszely (00:14:37):
Right. Because the whole, I mean, the whole reason he brought the patriarchy back, I know we're giving spoilers in the movie, was because he was in a one down position in Barbie land. Right. It was this, it was his needs. He wasn't seen, he wasn't heard. Now we all laugh at that. Right. The Barbie land because of what's happening in the real world. But I thought that was what was so powerful is he wouldn't have had a need to bring it back if he hadn't been so
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:15:05):
Right. Right.
Angela Weszely (00:15:06):
Felt uncared for unseen unheard. Right. So we, it just breeds more brokenness, I guess.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:15:11):
Yeah. And essentially when he went to the real world and he saw these images, those images were, if I could go back to their help, say you as special, you as guy, you're, you know, things he needed to hear,
Angela Weszely (00:15:25):
He needed. Yeah. You are a president, you're of companies president.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:15:29):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You you're a cowboy. You, you, you're strong. You know? Right.
Angela Weszely (00:15:34):
You, we I see you. Like, that was the whole thing. Like you're important. Right. yeah. Oh my gosh. So much in this. So,
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:15:43):
But the question is why do we live in such a either or world. Yeah,
Angela Weszely (00:15:55):
Right.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:15:56):
You know? and, and I think someone, I don't know if it was you someone that I had kind of chatted a little bit with about the movie, and this was before I saw it talked about connecting it to Genesis, the Genesis story.
Angela Weszely (00:16:17):
Yeah. That might've been an article I sent you. Amy Peeler wrote a great article. Yeah,
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:16:21):
Yeah. And so I was thinking, you know, how does this connect to Genesis? But then I was thinking about the, the, and I don't know if that's where the articles, but I was thinking about the two creation accounts in Genesis.
(00:16:37):
Okay. You know, the creation account in Genesis and Genesis chapter one of a man, it's man and female. He created them, you know, that's how it's described. And then in chapter two of Genesis, it's the whole animals put in a deep sleep. And you know, evils taken out of his rib, it's a different account. Hmm. And that's always been a theological kind of struggle. Why these two accounts of the creation of man, it seems like in chapter one they were created equal. 'cause basically it says man and female, he created them. There's no chronological order . Yeah. Right. In Genesis one. but in Genesis two, there is, and so part of the patriarchy that exists to the point of, to use the current term being weaponized has a lot to do with that. Genesis two and Genesis three the following that's attributed to the curiosity of woman. Right. but in genesis two, that taken from the rib is, is often used at to, to determine hierarchy. And so Genesis one has never really dealt with. And so when I think about the, this movie, you know, it's almost as if Barbie land was one creation story in the real world, was the one
Angela Weszely (00:18:25):
Interesting.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:18:27):
And how do the two connect?
Angela Weszely (00:18:29):
Hmm.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:18:33):
I just thought that was interesting. Yeah. And one of the things, you know, about Genesis two, it says, when Adam woke up he said, bone of my bones flush in my flesh. And so there's this to me, , there's this, there's, there's this need for men. If I could be specific to come out of a deep sleep, to recognize bone of my bones, flesh in my flesh, that there is the connection there that has nothing to do with hierarchy, but has to do with how God has ordained us. Mm-hmm. to support each other.
Angela Weszely (00:19:14):
Yeah. So is, this is so powerful. I actually didn't realize this till you said it. That's why I love your theological expertise, is Genesis one, where it says in his image, he created both of them, male and female. Yes. This
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:19:26):
Is,
Angela Weszely (00:19:27):
Yes. Because to me, that would supersede that fact supersedes the how So genesis, the, the later account is the how. But that first account is the actual essence of the what? That you actually don't get the full image of God without both genders. Would, would you say that's theologically I
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:19:47):
Would say that's yes. Yes.
Angela Weszely (00:19:49):
And so it would make sense why the enemy would try to attack and break it down, because we literally have to be together interacting together to demonstrate God's image.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:20:02):
Right? Yes.
Angela Weszely (00:20:05):
And when we aren't, that's when things break down. Because I think it's actually you who told me the story of sitting in a church where a woman had to apologize in front of the whole church for being pregnant outside of marriage. And the man was actually in the congregation. Not just that he wasn't there, but to me, that's a gender bo something's going on there that nobody realized. We, again, we've just accepted this, but it was somehow more her fault than his. Right. Right. She had to apologize and he didn't.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:20:40):
And he didn't No.
Angela Weszely (00:20:41):
In an act that was com hopefully mutual, but completely like 50 50. Right,
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:20:49):
Exactly. Yeah.
Angela Weszely (00:20:49):
But because I don't know if it's because she carries the child. I dunno if this is in theological or it's this hierarchy that the woman is to blame, you know, if that's where this all came in. But it's a, you can't heal that without digging into the hierarchy story.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:21:07):
Right, right. Yeah. And, and the ramifications of that. I was a child but as a child, I knew something's wrong with this.
Angela Weszely (00:21:21):
You knew how old, how
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:21:22):
Old were you? I don't know. 10.
Angela Weszely (00:21:25):
That's amazing. And you knew this isn't right.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:21:28):
This isn't right. Because there was shaming going on. Mm-hmm. , I could see that. I knew that. I felt, you know, I'm one of those empathetic people where if something goes wrong, and it's all, you know, if, if someone gets up and has a speech to make, and they make, they make mistakes, I feel like, let me get down in my, I feel like it's me.
Angela Weszely (00:21:50):
Yes. You're disconnected Yeah. With that feeling.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:21:53):
And so even at that age, yeah, I, I could see her sha I could see her shame. Aw. I mean, we weren't in a large church, maybe 150 members, but I could see how embarrassed she was. I could feel it even as a child. and I, and everyone knew who her boyfriend, everyone knew the man. And he is sitting there. And to me, somehow, it's like, why is she up there by herself?
Angela Weszely (00:22:24):
Yeah. Yeah.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:22:27):
And it wasn't so much the apology, which we, that's a whole different subject, but why is she the one
Angela Weszely (00:22:37):
Yes.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:22:38):
Who has to apologize and why is she Yes. Herself?
Angela Weszely (00:22:42):
Right. Why is he not with her? And this would be one of the things, and you can tell me what you think about this. It goes back to what you said about the movie, where maybe that action doesn't happen anymore. So we think, oh, we've changed. Right. You know, but that, that spirit or that attitude still persists. I don't what you feel about that. And again, that's why we're talking about this on this podcast. Can we get to the bottom of some of the brokenness and how we relate as genders? Because that idea that it's her fault, it's all focused on her, what decision, what decision is she gonna make, you know, is a, a gender breaking.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:23:21):
Right. Right. And biblically the same as the woman who was the woman who was called an adultery. Not as if you can't, you commit adultery by yourself. Right. No. So Exactly.
Angela Weszely (00:23:35):
Yes. They had to ignore somebody who was
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:23:37):
There committing adultery to
Angela Weszely (00:23:39):
Bring her by herself.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:23:42):
. They had to literally tell someone. And that was intentional. But go about your way, we're gonna take her.
Angela Weszely (00:23:48):
Exactly. Yeah. And just
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:23:50):
Caught in. Caught in, not caught afterwards. Caught in. So you literally had to tell, hoo, we, we, we got,
Angela Weszely (00:24:00):
We don't need you, we don't need you to trap Jesus.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:24:04):
Yeah. Yeah. And so that whole clearly if we, if we play that saint out, and John, that whole pitting of men against women is a trick of the enemy.
Angela Weszely (00:24:21):
Yes. I agree. He's still doing it today.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:24:25):
He's still doing it today. Because as you said, if you, if you continue with the o other part of that verse that in, in his, you know, we are created in God's image. Let, let us create man in our, in male and female, he created them then in his image means that, that, that, as you said, that it has to do something with the relationship, symbiotic relationship of male and female. And so if we're not exhibiting that bone of my bones, flesh my flesh, if we're not exhibiting that, then that's allowing the enemy to distort God's vision of who we are. Right?
Angela Weszely (00:25:06):
Yeah. And we wanna say no more. We wanna participate with God. Right. On recapturing this, I've always said that part of the passion of ProGrace in having a new Christian response to abortion is that God will be seen for who he is. Because I feel like in the false binary, if we abdicate our response to a political party that just, that runs God's name through the mud, because he is so much, he's so much bigger than these divides. Right. He values both genders equally. Right. And the abortion conversation, he values the woman and child equally, like his love and value for everybody in his image transcends what we call political. Right. So I wanted to have you on specifically because of your expertise and if you're okay, I wanna talk about your, your doctoral thesis, because when I heard what you did, I thought, and I heard how you spoke about what you did, I thought you're someone who can guide us into how to better have these conversations.
(00:26:08):
So your doctoral thesis was on anti-racism, pastoral care, and discipleship. And again, I love discipleship. And with that, you worked with only white churches, white evangelical churches to help the pastors become more faithful to their calling as shepherds. because you felt like pastoral care stopped when it came to issues of racism. And I of course made the connection, it stops when it comes to the abortion issue too, right? Mm-hmm. , there's, and, and there's other issues. But I wanted to have you unpack first of all, why, why is this discipleship and not politics? Because I think this is another topic that has gotten political. Just like people said, the Barbie movie was political when it talked about a patriarchy. I think some people might hear the word anti-racism and make that political, which is really sad because who is for racism, right? Like, but some of these words get cast in that light, right? Yeah. And you had to walk into that with so much grace. And so just could you talk about your experience, what we could learn from you or what, what that was like for you and your story? Because I do think there's huge lessons there for us to learn in how to have better conversations in the church.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:27:26):
Sure. So some definition, so anti-racist is not non-racist, right? So you can say you're non-racist, and that can be true, but that doesn't mean you're anti-racist.
Angela Weszely (00:27:40):
So anti-racist is you are actively fighting against it.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:27:45):
You are actively trying, you are actively working against it. Yes. And so non-racist is just, you're not, you're not acting in a racist way
Angela Weszely (00:28:00):
Personally.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:28:01):
Personally, but you are also not anti-racist. So there are things that you let slide
Angela Weszely (00:28:08):
In this collective community where you may have power.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:28:11):
Exactly. Okay. Yes. And we all have some sort of agency, no matter where we are in the hierarchy of our work life or church life, we all have some sort of agency. Right? Right. So it's a matter of whether or not we act in it. and for pastors, by definition, we are leaders.
Angela Weszely (00:28:34):
Right?
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:28:35):
And, but more so as pastors, by definition, we have the responsibility of shepherding a group of people who, if you're a Christian pastor who have, who have publicly stated or, or by inference that they are followers of Christ. And so as pastors, as we shepherd them to follow Christ and look more like Christ, then you can't simply be non-racist. Hmm. You have to be anti-racist. Jesus didn't come and say, I'm not for sin. He came and gave his life . Right, right. To take on our sin. Right.
Angela Weszely (00:29:22):
, great analogy. Yes. .
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:29:26):
And so when Jesus is you know, giving his, his last lessons, right? If we think about John 13 through 17, and Jesus is giving his last he specifically says, after he has washed the disciples feet he says to them, you know, that they should also do that. And he said, they will know you are my disciples by your love for one another. And so any efforts toward discipleship that doesn't is not saturated. Any, any discipleship class, any discipleship movement, any discipleship ministry that does not have the love ethic at the center. And the core of it is not discipleship at all. And so, and it doesn't stop with that love ethic doesn't stop at certain doors. Hmm. And so my, my question always was, if you are a pastor and you see overt sin in your congregation, and many times, at least the con places I've been part of, if, if someone called, you know, I, I've done pastoral care for a while.
(00:30:56):
If someone called as an example, a child called, a teenager called and said that my father is abusing me and my mom. I don't know what to do about it. We need help. And this person, this child that called, was the daughter of someone who was super, super, super high up in the deacon ministry. Okay. That was the father. And so the question became, 'cause this was my week. We used to, I used to be part of mega church in a smaller, this was my week to be the pastoral care person on a call. So when I knew who this was, my first reaction was, oh my God, , you know, oh my God, this is this person.
Angela Weszely (00:31:57):
Wait, you're saying this actually did happen to you?
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:31:59):
This happened? Yes. This is not
Angela Weszely (00:32:00):
Hypothetical. Okay.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:32:01):
No, no, no, no. But the immediate response right. Was to address this teenager's need, of course, personally, but then to let my senior pastor know who then call this deacon in for pastoral care. What's going on with you and your family? What's, what's happening? How do we address this? You know, this is, you know, from a pastoral care point of view, which was the right thing to do. That's part of, just like you have said that you are a follower of Christ as a follower of Christ. This is not in aligned with the S of Christ. Right. So, so let's, let's deal with that. Right.
Angela Weszely (00:32:42):
And the church is gonna actively stand against that and not be passive when it happens in their community.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:32:47):
Right.
Angela Weszely (00:32:48):
They're not gonna let innocent people be hurt.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:32:50):
But standing against it also meant, in this case, pastoral care, because this is a, this is a member, this is a leader, this is a follow of. Right. So in addition to what he's doing, his abusive actions, there are some issues within him. Right,
Angela Weszely (00:33:07):
Right. Right.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:33:08):
That need to be reconciled to who he says he is and who he's following. Right. Right. The pastoral care aspect of it, I felt was missing that, that, that that role of the pastor was missing when it came to issues of racism.
Angela Weszely (00:33:27):
Well, that they just weren't talking about it. They weren't,
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:33:30):
They weren't talking about it. They were letting it pass. So they
Angela Weszely (00:33:33):
Themselves might, they themselves were maybe non-racist, but they were letting other people vocally.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:33:42):
Right. And so the, the notion of anti-racism, pastoral care was a whole different, the, the, the combination of those two words was totally new to me.
Angela Weszely (00:33:52):
Yeah.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:33:53):
Right. But, but it made sense when I put it together. When I thought about how do we become faithful to our call, we shepherd, we shepherd a people that God has entrusted us with to who say that they want to follow Christ to be more like Christ. Yeah. And so when it comes to issues of sin around race than to be anti-racist means to not engage in racist activities, but also to tear down racist activities that, that you or yourself doing Right. To, that you see in your congregation, people doing it. If, if preaching across the pulpit, which happened during the summer of 2020, some pastors tried it and people walked out. They walked out. 'cause they never heard it from you before they walked out, because you never lived it before. You never called them on it before. And so if you know these things are happening in your congregation, if you would administer pastoral care to someone in a domestically abusive relationship, then administer pastoral care for someone who's in a racially abusive relationship. Right.
Angela Weszely (00:35:02):
Right.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:35:03):
And so that was kind of how we approached those six months together.
Angela Weszely (00:35:09):
Wow. And I just, there's so many things to ask you on this, so I'm gonna pick one, but then we may hit some others. What was that like for you? What was that experience like for you? Because here you are, as a black woman, I am sure you've had personal experience and story, and yet you're walking in to be used of God to ask pastors to step into their role as shepherd. I can imagine the responses were all across the board. And so what was it like for you? How did you navigate that? And I'm asking this because how, you know, how can we be agents of starting this conversation if we ourselves have been on the receiving end of some of this? What did that take from you? What was that like? Yeah. How did that, how did that play out?
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:36:00):
Yeah. So at first each session had its own level of gravitas, if you will. Okay. one session in particular, though, prior to it, I was wrestling with it because it required, I knew so much grace from me and some of my, so, so my background is I'm, I'm connected with this church now, but I spent 20 years in mega church and was head of the social justice ministry there, part of our social justice ministry or, or much, most of our social justice ministry involved activism. Okay. Activism around legislation and, and those kind of things. and so I was a real rah rah, rah, let's get it done. Let's march, let's talk to them. You know? Yeah. I was, we were connected with everyone. They didn't have to be Christians. I mean, our T-shirts said, Jesus I justice, but yeah. Folks next to us may not, you know.
(00:37:03):
Right, right. and so when I got the orders, marching orders from God to do this, didn't wanna do it in the first place, but it was where God was leading me because there's no, there was no progression in how we were doing it. We'd take a step forward and then take two steps back. That's just how it worked. so I said, we as Christians need to be doing this differently, but I don't know how, like we gotta bring something different to the table than everyone else. We're marching with, what is it? Mm. And so when this kind of came to me, you know, it was so counter to the marching and the aggression that I was like, I, I don't know if this is for me, like, I don't know, ,
Angela Weszely (00:37:51):
Because that's how you saw yourself. Right. That's, you had to reframe how you saw yourself and how you engage in the issue.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:37:58):
Right. And to actually, it sounds trite, but to actually agree with the fact that our issues about race and our issues around women and our role and, and it are all ultimately heart issues. Right. And so while legislation can change and doors can open, and yet we wonder why we feel like we're still still in the same place is because doors have opened, but hearts have.
Angela Weszely (00:38:29):
Exactly.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:38:30):
Yeah. Wow. So, so I thought, what is it? If our role as, as believers is to rec, is reconciliation, then maybe we should start there. But reconciliation requires grace. Yeah. So in one, in one particular session and we used, we used the Bible 'cause I wanted them to have language when they went back to their churches that was familiar to their congregants mm-hmm. . So we might bring in other thought leaders, you know, that I was studying. But ultimately it was the Bible that we used. So one of our sessions, we were going over the s ian woman who was, who followed Jesus for help with her daughter, who she said was demon possessed. And and the disciples said, why is she yelling after us? Get away from us. And yeah. And then that's the time where Jesus said, you know, I, I didn't, you know, I came for, you know, why would I give the, the children's food children's books and, and that kind of stuff. So pe and, and a lot of times people have trouble with that scripture. But as I was preparing and thinking about this, I remember the night before just going, wow. what else would they say?
(00:40:00):
You know, people go straight to the woman's faith. Oh, what great faith she had to say, even the dogs comes and Jesus says, oh, ye have great faith. And and people go straight to that 'cause that feels good. Mm-hmm. But let's deal with the fact that Jesus said, why should I give the, the children's food to the dogs? To
Angela Weszely (00:40:17):
Dogs? It's a troubling passage.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:40:19):
It's a troubling passage. And, and, and, and half of the disciples say, get her away. Get her away. Yeah. we can't skip over that. Right, right. Because especially with the work that I was doing with them, because part of the issues around race, and I don't mean to, to to be political, but a lot of it has to do with power and privilege. So the disciples are saying, get her away from us. Jesus is saying, you're not of that privileged group. You can't get that get, you know but this is Jesus. This is our savior, so we gotta deal with it.
Angela Weszely (00:41:00):
We gotta figure out what was going on. Gotta figure out what God in the flesh.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:41:03):
Yeah. So I started thinking, Hey, what else would they say? 'cause I've done a lot of teaching of the Old Testament. The Jews were the chosen call people. Right. They had this covenant relationship with God and they, it was, it was what they pulled on, what they knew, what pulled them out of disaster. And all of this, this is who they were. It was part of their d n a. So when the said Get her away from us, it's because they were the call chosen group privilege. When Jesus said, I didn't, you know, this is for my time for you. Is my hour's not coming? Whatever he said, I'm sorry, not whatever he said. But you know, , I know the exact words essentially said, I came where the Jesus is not for you. Why would I give the, the children's bread to dogs?
(00:42:00):
It still pulls on that legacy of who are the children, who are the cause. Yeah. Part Jesus, Jesus was fully human and fully divine. That's what makes him so unique from any other God. Little g is that he is fully human and fully divine. So in his humanity, he could say, there's a hierarchy here. You're not it, you're not up there. Right. It was part of their d n a, but Jesus being full of grace and also being fully, fully, God was turned and said, you know yeah, you, you're, you deserve healing too. Yes. Your faith, you deserve healing too. The thing is, we don't turn the, the, the d n a of being superior was, was totally understandable with the Jews that we read about in the Bible. There's a d n a of being superior in America.
(00:43:08):
It is part of the d n A of America. And so as I prepared to go over this, I thought, okay, you learn about in seminary internalized racism, that is people who are the subjects or victims of racism begin to expect it and internalize it and therefore treat themselves a certain way or each other. Yep. Yep. So if we, I thought if we give people a path for internalized racism, the things I do to myself, the things I do to my people is part of this devaluation that is part of my d n a because of the come from slavery and all of that. The flip side of that is internalized supremacy. It's the flip side. You can call it good, you can call it bad, you can call it, it's simply the flip side. Because you can't have one without the other. You can't have one without the other.
(00:44:04):
Yep. The d n A is the d n a. Yep. If, if by legislation, I was told my ancestors were told I'm three-fifths human, then if I'm three-fifths human and you're five fifths human, obviously you're gonna think you're superior to me. Right. Three, five fifths trumps three-fifths all day long. Right. Right. And so if that's part, that's part of the D N a, which means just like with the disciples and that interaction with Jesus, the grace that was necessary in that moment for the woman to even say, yeah, but even the dogs get the scraps. I
Angela Weszely (00:44:50):
Know. I'm not sure I would've been able to say that. Like
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:44:53):
Was the grace when in approaching this session with these white pastors to, to say, I understand your, your D N A.
Angela Weszely (00:45:05):
Okay, wait, so
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:45:07):
I understand white supremacy. I understand. How could you not feel, how could your congregants not
Angela Weszely (00:45:16):
Feel because you, this is the d n A of this
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:45:19):
Is the d n A of America.
Angela Weszely (00:45:21):
So you're gonna enter into it
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:45:24):
Right. And say, how do we get from the place how? So, so if we approach it right, because if we approach things from a you versus me
Angela Weszely (00:45:34):
Right.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:45:35):
Mentality, walls start to erect right away.
Angela Weszely (00:45:39):
Yep. Right. And that's
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:45:40):
What these pastors, that's what these pastors was telling me. The hardest part about bronching some of these subjects was that the, the immediate erection of walls as if Yep. You are accusing me. Yep. Of white supremacy. You are accusing me of having privilege. I went to public school just like they not really recognizing what the privilege is. Right, right. So they said that those walls were, they, they didn't know how to get beyond them. They didn't know how to Yeah. And what I, and teaching is I realized that it's not about plowing through the wall. It's about understanding the dynamics. And if you understand the dynamics, then just as you have grace and empathy for someone who is a victim of racism, because of the history, you have to have that same grace. You have to have that same empathy for someone who's a supremacist. Because if you think about the history, how could they be anything else?
Angela Weszely (00:46:40):
You are saying they're a victim of this mentality of
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:46:45):
America's sin. Yeah.
Angela Weszely (00:46:46):
Of America's sin. So then that allows you to see them in the image of God being negatively impacted by this same cultural sin.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:47:00):
Right. Right. You
Angela Weszely (00:47:01):
Could go in with grace for them.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:47:05):
Right. Right. And realizing that because of these, that it would, it needed to be an effort to bring everyone back to what does it look to this, this, this reconciliation, this, this salvific work of Christ so that we can become more and more like Christ, which means the focus is on Christ and to throw Christ in their faces all day, every day. So if we think about how this relates to abortion or how it relates to women in their roles, like in, in in the movie, a lot of, of what we see is part of d n a,
Angela Weszely (00:48:07):
The real world that they walked into. That's just d n a,
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:48:11):
That's d n a stayed with
Angela Weszely (00:48:12):
Us so long, we don't even recognize it.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:48:15):
Right, right. And likewise though, likewise though the, the Fantas the Barbie land that Ken so recoiled from
Angela Weszely (00:48:26):
Exactly. And they were all under it. Yeah. Right,
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:48:31):
Right.
Angela Weszely (00:48:31):
So, okay, so this is my spirit is just this is the only answer it you've just outlined. So many social issues Reverend Dries to see, to be able to step back and see things that are d n a and to understand that in some way in different ways, we're all victims. I mean, that right there turns things on its head and allows people to enter into conversation. I think it's the shame. I, I guess, let me give gimme give an example. When you said it was 10 times harder for a black woman, I think I felt shame. I felt some shame for being a white woman. Like I, I'm not even, I'm just realizing it now. I think that your attitude of grace to understand how I was raised in a white society, things I see and don't see that you would have grace for me.
(00:49:32):
I was nervous about saying the wrong thing to you or making a mistake. but your posture of we're all in this to together is like, actually helped me see that and is helping my temperature come down, if that makes sense. I wasn't super nervous about it, but it was just like mm. Buzzing in my head. Right. And as you started talking about this with racism, I could feel myself connecting to you as a sister in Christ. I could hear the wisdom in your words. I just, I felt the grace. and I'm saying that because I feel like I keep, I keep thinking that's probably what it feels like to be a man and watch the Barbie movie like that. That's how I was making the connection. Like, I can relate to that. Like it's scary to, it's better to say I'm non-racist. It's easier to say I'm not, I'm not racist or I'm not, than to actually look at the systemic, the culture and say, I want to be anti, I want to actually see the kingdom come. Right. Because that means I risk, where am I gonna get shamed? You know? Like it's, but but your posture of coming in together as believers saying that it's the cultural sin and we can all find forgiveness and grace in Jesus and have this discussion. I don't know. It just has released me in a way that I'd love to hear you talk about, because you know more about it than I do. I'm just sharing my experience with it. But you probably know the theological reasons why, why this is true.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:51:04):
I mean, I don't know. I, I'm not sure I fully understand the question. , but
Angela Weszely (00:51:12):
I'm not sure I do either. I dunno.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:51:15):
I'll say the, the reason why I wanted to know more and learn more and perhaps, you know, be, be, be supportive of ProGrace was because these dichotomies are manmade. Yep. Right? Yep. Yep. Jesus's ministry was reconciliation.
Angela Weszely (00:51:42):
Yep.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:51:43):
And so all the dichotomies are manmade. It's not that we shouldn't acknowledge or celebrate our differences, but we celebrate our differences. We don't condemn them.
Angela Weszely (00:51:55):
Right? Yes.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:51:56):
and, and the goal is to find a mutuality that manifest as Christ.
Angela Weszely (00:52:10):
Yeah.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:52:12):
And as difficult as it may be, or as it as difficult as it was for me, I literally cried. I wet like a baby before I did this session with them. I'm like, Lord, I don't tooth .
Angela Weszely (00:52:24):
Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:52:26):
I don't wanna because wrong is just wrong.
Angela Weszely (00:52:30):
Yeah. It's wrong and Right. Do something about it. God, why do I?
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:52:35):
But it is like, you know, they'll know you're my disciples by your love. how can you, how can you condemn someone for believing what they've always been told? Yeah. That whole five fifths versus three-fifths human thing. Just like how can you believe someone for believing they're superior when that's what they've always been told.
Angela Weszely (00:53:01):
Right. And we've always been told in certain ways that one, gender is superior, but gender too. One
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:53:07):
Gender is superior. Always been told, been held account for it. Right. Yeah. Because if you don't show up like a man Right, then somehow you're less than. Right. And part of showing up like a man in, and our d n a is to be, have a woman be subservient. Right. The whole Genesis one man and female, he created them is not taken into account.
Angela Weszely (00:53:39):
Yep.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:53:40):
Yep. And what that means.
Angela Weszely (00:53:43):
Yep. And you are so, I just, it's so profound to me. I think what happens in the issue of racism or gender, even the abortion issue, it's like you're either ignore it. Like you were saying. Like don't take pastoral care to that or get on the shame and blame truck and cancel. And what you are bringing in is the kingdom answer of reconciliation. That neither we don't put our head in the sand. We don't say it doesn't exist. We call it sin. Yet we do that with a posture of reconciliation, knowing that Jesus is the only one who has it all. Right. That's how we can be reconciled to each other. Right. Which would, could you imagine the ministry to our world if we could be reconciled to each other?
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:54:33):
Right. That's why I love the title ProGrace. That's where I was going. Because it's not picking any side, but God. Right. And it's not God side. It's not it's not appropriating God to our, to our side. It's not saying God is on my side. Right. It's not about God being on my side. It's about me being on God's side.
Angela Weszely (00:54:59):
God's side.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:55:02):
And God is clear about his side while we were Yes. Sined Christ died for us. Yep. Right. He's, he's clear. Yep. The grace message period. And so ProGrace , I know you're like, let me just get this, what I'm doing off and running. ProGrace is a brand that can be applied to a lot of things.
Angela Weszely (00:55:26):
I know. You're not the first person to say yes. Right. Right. Exactly. I mean, we didn't coin Grace. It just is. And you know, when I started it seven years ago, I thought I was starting it. 'cause I understood Grace so well, and God had done so much in my life, which he has, but I feel like I've, like, I'm emotional. I've had a moment of grace with you right here, having this discussion. So that's the thing about Grace. There's more. Right. I, I need more in places I didn't know I needed it. You know, we need more in all these discussions in places we didn't know we needed it. So thank you Right. For coming in and pointing us to that.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:56:05):
Sure. And I think that was an America, the actress, her, her, her, her ultimately her, her plea was can we just have grace? Yeah. In our decisions. Can you just give us grace mm-hmm. , not condemnation, but just grace. Yep. You know, in in circles, in our circles, we have this term we call the Ministry of presence. And that ministry of presence is not trying to tell you what to do or even really counsel. You may come to that, but ultimately just to sit with you in the space you're in. Yeah. And I think the, the account that I talked about with the cohort of pastors I was working with ultimately boiled down to let me sit with them mm-hmm. in the space that they're in. Because by doing that, I first acknowledged the space that they're in as being valid for them. Yeah. Even if five years ago I might've railed against it. Yep. Right. Now let me acknowledge it as being real for them. Yep. Sit with them in it, and then we figure out how to move forward together. But the sitting with Right is so important. That's, that's where job's friends went awry. They didn't take the time to first just sit with him in the space he was in. Yeah. He wanted to figure it out. Pandemic say, it's all your fault, you know, you should have done this, you should have done that.
Angela Weszely (00:57:49):
We do that,
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:57:51):
We do that.
Angela Weszely (00:57:52):
Yep.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:57:52):
But Jesus came and came to sit with us first. Yeah. I always say, why did he need a three and a half ministry just to show us how it's done? He could have come and died ourselves and not had that ministry, but it's like, this is how it's done. Yeah.
Angela Weszely (00:58:07):
I'm gonna sit
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:58:07):
With, I'm gonna with you, with you where you are. Mm-hmm. , I think it was in John when he was calling his disciples and it was Nathaniel or I don't know who, and they said, you know, what's this whole thing about? And is like, come on, come see. Yeah. And he lived with him for three years.
Angela Weszely (00:58:24):
Hmm. And he's with us. I think just to close this off, thank you for this. We need hope. We need hope that there's a way out of the abortion issue, but also gender racism. And you have instilled that hope. It is him, it's his presence. And we both had hard mornings this morning, , if we can go back to that. Right. And we asked him to show up and he's, he's with us. So I think just this demonstration, he can be with us in every conversation and to maintain that hope. We're holding these equal things, really bad things, sin broken and this hope that comes from his presence. So you brought that, you brought that today.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:59:08):
Well, thank you for having me. I didn't know what I'd bring, but it was something .
Angela Weszely (00:59:14):
Yep. And all your pink. Yes, absolutely. Yes. . Hey. My favorite thing since an empathic person, I'll just close with this, where the attorney at the beginning in Barbie land said, I can hold emotion and logic at the same time. And it doesn't diminish me. It actually makes me better have more to offer. I feel like Thank you. As empathic women, that's what we brought. So thank you so much.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:59:39):
You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you for listening. As I thought through things,
Angela Weszely (00:59:45):
together, we thought through them together. So thanks everybody for listening. We hope this makes entering into these conversations more hopeful for everyone.
. (00:59:55):
Amen.
Rev. Dr. Darice Wright (00:59:56):
Thank
. (00:59:56):
You.
Angela Weszely (00:59:59):
Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you've been inspired to see Jesus and to be part of a community where you feel at home. Join our email subscriber list to receive updates on how together we can change the Christian response to abortion. The only way we'll do that is through God's grace, which is beyond measure. I am so grateful for that. And so, until next time, I am Angela Wesley on the Grace Journey with you, ProGrace on abortion. Real Talk. No Politics is a production of ProGrace International.
